Why These Conversations Matter

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello, and um welcome to another one of my fireside conversations that I'm having with people in academia who identify as being neurodiverse in some way. The aim is to hear their personal experiences and to get an understanding of what their journey has been. A chance for them to tell their own story without being told what they should be like and what they should feel like due to um labels that have been applied. As a result, in every episode we get the opportunity to see the wide diversity that is neurodiversity. Since we're hearing personal journeys, the terminology or wording will be theirs and based on their experiences and will be describing their personal journeys. It's important not to lose the impact of their generosity in sharing this by getting lost in semantics and worrying about words we either don't like or would not choose to use. It's not important. What is important is that we get to hear authentic voices in ways that people feel comfortable, and for me to ask the questions that I think we all need to hear the answers to. I want us to learn from their life experiences in their own voices. And that's me done on that now.

Meet Sally And The Bees

SPEAKER_00 1:11

So hello. Um hi Sally, thanks for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself beyond your new adversity, please?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Sure. Um, so I'm Sally, I am the director of university well-being services at Newcastle University. So that's a team of colleagues that are responsible for colleague and student well-being. Um, and in that includes an excellent team. All the teams are excellent, but an excellent team that work with students who are neurodivergent and colleagues who provide training on that as well. So it's interesting that I have uh dyslexia and that I'm managing colleagues who are supporting colleagues and students with overcoming some of the challenges that being neurodivergent delivers for people. So that's that's kind of me professionally. Uh personally, um, outside of that, my big passion is things like gardening, beekeeping. I keep bees, and I absolutely love doing that. That's so much fun. Mmm, keep bees.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

That's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yes, very exciting. Um, and that's where probably that where I'm happiest when I'm kind of out in nature and things like that. So love my job, but but really love kind of being out outdoors and out in nature when the weather's good.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, the bees will be getting all excited just now, won't they? Because there's a lot of pollen around.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah, it's a beautiful time of year. So don't cut your grass too early. Make sure you leave something for the pollinators, leave your weeds for a bit.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

No, I I fully embrace what I was told last year is um no mow may.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yes, fantastic. Absolutely, absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I like to pretend because I like to not mow, but it's because I don't like to mow more than.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Well, there you go. You've got a great reason not to mow. You're supporting pollinators by not mowing. It might not please your neighbours, but it'll please the bees.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Oh, my neighbours are very understanding. Anyway, sorry, back to the topic. So talking to the topic, um, how would you describe yourselves in terms of your newer diversity?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

So

Diagnosed Early In The 1970s

SPEAKER_01 3:09

uh I know that I have dyslexia. Well, I've been told I was diagnosed when I was very, very young in the in the kind of mid 70s, which was probably quite unusual for the time. I had a really good teacher, so I'd known that I've had dyslexia.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

That's early in dyslexia story, isn't it? Because dyslexia was, for one better phrase, invented in was it 1970?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, so I this would have been in the probably the late 70s, and I'm just sort of thinking about, and I can I can actually see my teacher now. You know, they say you always remember a good teacher. Yeah, so I was at junior school and his name was Mr. Cooper. If you're out there, Mr. Cooper, you were a fantastic teacher, and he spotted challenges that I was having, some of the challenges I was having in the classroom, and brought my parents in for a conversation and said, you know, it's not that she's not making the effort, it's that she's struggling. I think she has something called um dyslexia. So he was a he was a really good teacher. He helped me to learn in really creative ways. Yeah, he was he was really good. And and I think that helped me to uh, you know, try to find new and different creative ways of learning, but he was a fantastic teacher. Some of the things they did for students with dyslexia in the 70s wasn't as uh sensitive as it could be. So I can remember that once a week I would be I would be um taken to extraction. It was literally called extraction because you were extracted from your class, and I was taken to another classroom, and there was this huge machine that's the only way I can describe it, this big sort of metal machine, and it would have cards and it would have a word written on the card, and at the bottom of the card um would be the sort of tape you would get in a cassette tape player. Does that make sense? Yeah, and you would drop the card into the machine and it would roll through and it would read the word on the card, and that's that's all I did. They said they used to take me to this room once a week and give me a bunch of cards, and then you know, you'd you'd slide the card through and it would say, Because B A C and it would, and then you just had to repeat it back. I'm not quite sure how that aided somebody with dyslexia. Um, and also the idea of being, you know, being extracted, literally called extraction. And and yeah, if that happened nowadays, what that would do for young people to be physically. I mean, this person used to come to my classroom and not march me out, but be like, oh Sally, it's it's time to take you out for extraction. And I would be extracted from the classroom. Yes, yeah. So it was a I look back now and think I was either really unaware at the time or I had really nice peers and a nice teacher, or I had really good self-esteem. I don't know what, because I don't remember it feeling embarrassing or it being like traumatic or anything. But as an adult, looking at it through adult eyes, I think, oh ouch. You know, that's not a great way to approach it. So that that was kind of, yeah, that would have been mid to mid to late 70s. That would have um that would have happened. Beyond that, I don't really remember anything else in like secondary school or anything like that. Don't didn't get any additional time or tutoring or tips or hints or anything. It was it was more my dad that that helped me most probably with kind of dealing with overcoming kind of barriers to certain spelling errors and challenges that I had.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

So so at junior school, was that an actual diagnosis?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Or was it just yeah, it was so so this this this chap Mr. Cooper, he um I I don't know who he must have brought somebody in. This was the and they took me through a series of kind of different tests and things like that. And that was that was what they said. Oh, we think you've got dyslexia, so this lady's gonna come in once a week and you're gonna experience extraction and and that will make it better. And um it it didn't. And the thing is it's one of those things that you you I've personally learned to kind of ways you know around it. So for instance, something my dad taught me when I was little was you know breaking words up, and I can remember the word because really struggled because my dyslexia stuck with you the word because it really stuck with me because my dyslexia is really focused on vowels. So if a word has a lot of vowels in it, it it's a real it my brain kind of crashes and burns. So words like manoeuvrability and things like that, I just like oh and remember my dad saying, Well, because is is actually three words, it's beck, as in Rebecca, your friend, beck a use. And I was like, ah, and even today when I write the word because Dan, that's it, you get your pen out while you listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Well, that's that's genius because because obviously is a difficult word, and now we've got predictive text and things, which kind of solves assists, but because I that's I like that, yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

It's good, isn't it? Beck a use. And and even now though, when I handwrite the word because there's always a little gap after the beck and before the a and after the a and before the us.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

You break it down, you break it down, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

So you I you know we learned little tips like that, little little things like that that that were really helpful, but it was predominantly my my my father that kind of taught me those. I don't recall getting anything at secondary school. Apologies to my secondary school if you did, but no recollection of it all, didn't get additional time in exams or anything like that. It just wasn't a just wasn't a thing. No, basically get away.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

So, how did you survive?

Reading Passion And Coping Hacks

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Um for want of a better phrase, I think.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, it's a good I I think um I was a verocious reader, I can remember that, and I still am today. You know, I can I can remember uh like bumping into people walking home like from school because I was physically reading a book while work walking home from school. So a really, really big reader, um, and still am today, big podcaster and and audio books and and things like that. Um, but I think family support was probably what got me through any kind of challenges, maybe some peer support as well. I had some good friends at school.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Um people around you, the people come alongside. Yeah, and some of those I'm still in touch with today who were really, really not didn't have me cheat, but kind of you know, that kind of peer support and that that kind of peer tutoring, really. Um but things are much better for for for students today, much, much better in secondary schools. I think they're more attuned, more aware, and recognise how to support students respectfully.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

There's more understanding, isn't it? I think so um okay, so you said you're a ferocious reader, which kind of goes against the common perception of dyslexic people.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Does it? I suppose so, yeah. No, no, I and I guess the other thing I I am is I'm and you're probably evident from the podcast, I'm quite a good uh good public speaker. So I've got no problem with speaking publicly if I know the subject. I once turned up to a conference where they said, Oh my god, the key speaker's like going to be 45 minutes late. Is there any chance you can, you know, turn the workshop you're gonna deliver this afternoon into something? And I was like, Yeah, fine. 400 people in the audience, no problem at all with with public speaking. And I think because my writing skills, or I believed my writing skills, and I think that's the key thing here for people with dyslexia, I believed my ability to craft the written word was poor. I think what I did was I kind of emphasized over here that you know the ability to speak publicly well. Um, and and reading, no, absolutely loved reading. Reading out loud, very different. So reading for myself, and I think that's probably where because you didn't need to get the words right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah. Could that be a reason to be what I meant?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Yeah, I think I you know, no, absolutely, I think so because I didn't have to worry whether I was saying them out loud correctly, they were right in my head, even though I mean one of my earliest experiences of uh of recognizing that I'd got dyslexia was my parents driving around a city and we were looking for somewhere, we were looking for a car park, and I said, There's the sign, look, it's there. And I pointed up and I said, There's the park arc. My dad said, The what? And I said, The park arc, it's there. And I said it four times, and my dad said, What are you? And I couldn't hear myself say the word park arc. I couldn't hear that. I heard car park in my head. So when I was reading a book, I heard I hear car park, even though if I say it out loud, I might say the word park arc. No, it doesn't matter in your head. So so yeah, I think reading was was really, really helpful in that finding kind of getting lost in a book, um, and and maybe developing kind of speaking skills as well. That that was a a kind of way, I think, to to attend to the belief that my ability to, like I say, craft something in writing was poor.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Uh

Dyslexia And The Superpower Debate

SPEAKER_00 11:39

that kind of brings us to one of the controversial aspects of neodiversity at the moment, and that's the it's kind of driven by the made and dyslexia organization a little bit. Um, the concept of superpowers. How do you feel about superpowers?

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Um I don't uh it it I it's it's an interesting one, isn't it? Would I not want to have dyslexia? I I think the answer is no for me, because I think one of the things, and this is different for everybody, isn't it? Um when I was preparing to kind of that's the beauty of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

It's different for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah, it's different for everybody. And when I was preparing to kind of meet with you today, I was thinking about things and thinking, you know, as a as a youngster, there'll be also or sometimes in in some professional situations, I'd feel quite embarrassed or even humiliated if people sort of mocked a mistake I'd made. Like somebody will, I'd and I I smile now because it's different now. Now I've got the confidence of a middle-aged person. Yeah, so you can mock me all you like. I don't, you know, I'll still get paid the same sort of thing. Um, but as a youngster, I didn't it didn't feel like a superpower. And there's been times in professional settings where it's felt humiliating because people have and and they've they I'm sure they haven't meant to be unkind, they've just thought it's funny. Like I worked for an organization once and I handed out business cards for six months that said therapeutic services manger instead of manager. Yeah, I laugh. You laugh. It's funny. It's genuinely, it's genuinely, genuinely funny. But in terms of a superpower, I don't I don't know if it's a it's not a superpower for me, but I do think that anything that you could perceive as a deficit, you might find other ways of of developing skills and and and techniques. So you might grow a skill over here because you can't you can't do your listeners can't see this. I'm gesticulating you, you know, you might increase your ability in one area because of a real or perceived deficit in another. So I think my public speaking is much better, and my passion for reading is really intense because of what I perceive as a deficit, which was my ability to kind of write or read out loud and things like that. But I don't know about superpower. I love the idea of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

This is what one my the thing's in my head at the moment is um I'm happy with running with a superhero thing, but I'm more Batman than Superman. Because what I've got doesn't actually come naturally, it's not a natural thing that just comes with life. It's something uh it's hacks I've developed along the way, so I've got my my my belt of tools which I can use because and I think equally to like you were saying, uh, if someone asks me to talk, I'll stand up and talk. I won't know what I'm saying, but I'll I'm quite standing and talk because that's what I've always had to do. Because the couple of things are like, yeah, and I tell you, yeah, I think uh is it a superpower?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I don't know. What people will often come in and say, you know, how will I respond to this? Or how do I craft that? And that's this point about how you know, whether you're a wordsmith or not with something like dyslexia, is I will say to people, well, why don't you say blah blah blah blah blah? And they'll go, Oh, that was brilliant, say it again. And I've got, oh, I can't, I can't say it again, it's gone, it's left my head. I can't read so some there's sometimes people come in and say, I want to talk to you about something, but I'm going to call you on Teams and record it because I'll come up with some phraseology that we could use in a document or a policy, and then the person says, Oh, that's brilliant. Well, repeat it, can't repeat it. It's it's it's it's kind of gone in the moment. Yeah, it's gone. You know, and it's almost like a kind of and maybe the with the dyslexia of I've kind of developed the skill to find the word and articulate the words quickly and fast verbally, but it's lost the minute it's it's left my mouth. So, you know, I have to I'm I take lots of notes and stuff if I want to kind of capture some of those those thoughts or those phrases.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah, it's like to me like bubbles once they've gone, they're popped, and you've popped up. If someone else has heard it, it's great to they might remember it, but yeah. Excellent. Um so uh in terms of diagnosis, it's kind of I guess asking you um how it's affected you is kind of an on-question, isn't it really?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Because you were so early in life that um Yeah, I think I mean it it has it has an effect in in in in positive ways and and it's different, like I say, different for everybody. So some of the positive ways I find it quite entertaining because I now have the the kind of personal self-confidence where if I make a mistake because of my dyslexia, it w it genuinely doesn't bother me. Okay. Um so um I'll give you some examples. I once sent somebody's children a birthday card, twin girls, and wrote, happy birthday, Harlot and Chariot instead of Charlotte and Harriet. I thought that was funny. Yeah, I have been known to raise a glass at people's weddings to to hairy maiden instead of Hayden and Mary. You know, because I'm reading, yeah, you know, but so because of the confidence I I've I've got, and I think that's because of the kindness of people, the support from family and friends, and and good colleagues, and and and that early experience with Mr. Cooper, I can see the entertaining side of my dyslexia. Um, but I can also recognise that that confidence is, you know, I've got that as a bit of a privilege, really, and lots of people don't, or they're not treated kindly or respectfully, and and they are kind of mocked for for these kind of experiences. But but for me, having that early diagnosis and having a certainly in that first year at school with that teacher, that was I think a big springboard for me that that set me on a positive trajectory.

Inclusion At Work Without Spotlighting

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yeah, I think um I think the age things I think is really significant, and I think that's why it's important for people who are less young to talk more about their university because I feel more I I'm quite happy to stand up and say no, I can't do that because, or no, I'm not gonna read that because, or no, you've not given the paperwork beforehand, so therefore I can't engage with it now because. Whereas someone, an early years careers person or a student would potentially find that much harder to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

I I agree, and I think there's an onus on on everybody, um, and maybe colleagues uh like ourselves. So one of the things I never do, and and people used to do it to me when I was younger and lacking confidence, is you know, when you get people together and they've got like a flip chart and they go, okay, right, we're gonna split off into groups. There's a flip chart on every table, and something I never do is say to a person in that group, right, here's the pen. Do you want to you can be the scribe for this group? I never do that. I put the pen in the table and I make sure there's enough pens and say, if anybody would like to scribe, the amount of times they've said, people have said, Oh, here's the pen, do you want to come up and write that on the board? No, I don't want to come up and write that on the board. Yeah, well, one of the when I type, um, I'm quite a fast typer, um, and I have to type quickly and get all the all my thinking out, and then I correct it afterwards. Damien, one of the words I I mistype because of my dyslexia, because my dyslexia is words, letters get swapped around in words. Yeah, yeah. They're they're the you know, they're the they're um I'll get the the letters swapped around. I regularly, probably hundreds of times a day, spell the word student incorrectly when I type, if I type fast.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

That's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

It is unfortunate considering the uh the sexual I've I've I've I've chosen to work in. Obviously, I correct that before I press send. Most times, apologies if anyone received an email with me where I've spent the spelt the word student wrong. But thinking about how we you know we support people is thinking about are we placing people who are neurodivergent in these situations that which at the very least are awkward and at the worst can can feel really you know, for some people quite abusive when we put them in these situations where they feel compelled. Yeah, here's a pen, can you come write that on the board? No, don't it give people the opportunity and invite that or invite other ways of of sharing um things with within a group, whether that be verbal or you know, uh in different ways, it doesn't always have to be a pen to a paper. So that's something I think is is really important um that we should all just be aware of and think about. And it's an unintended consequence, but I don't genuinely don't think colleagues, friends, or most of society is going around deliberately trying to distress somebody who's neurodivergent, but just a little bit more thought or a bit of creativity in your in your communication can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, and I think that's something else I'm trying to do through in many ways is to liberate people to be able to say and ask, as opposed to just assume.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Because um talking less than around, there's something another humorous story is I kind of do woodwork and I've been getting to route to routing at the moment and writing words. And my um nephew is turning 18, well just turned 18, and he's called Ollie. And I very carefully routed, made him a chopping board and routed into it Ollie. Only when I stood back and looked at it, it said I L O instead of O L I. I'd very carefully written it the wrong way around. And I'd written it, I'd written it on pencil on the wood, I'd carefully labelled it out and looked at it and thought that's perfect, and then got the router out and did it. And it was only afterwards I realised totally the wrong way around.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Now, are you going to do him another one or are you gonna give him that one? Because you see, if you were doing that for me, I would want the one that was the wrong way around because there's that's a there's a uniqueness in there, it's fantastic. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

I put an O in front of it, an L be between the I and the O, and then the L became a one and the O became an eight.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Very creative. Now there's the and I think that's my belt superpower.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

That's Batman's belt.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, I think, and I think that's the superpower, is the kind of the kind of creativity of of what people do. But and I think that's the same for for for any disability, the the creativity that you can use. And I often say to people who you know we're supporting or or or somebody that has any any form of disability, you know, it there's nothing wrong with you. People aren't broken or faulty. We just live in a world that isn't always as tolerant as it can be for difference. And we have to find ways to navigate that while educating people to be Tolerance, but I love that. I think that's fan. And what a story that goes with that. That's that's just brilliant. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

So, um, do you think your dyslexia has led you to the role you're doing now?

Hand Head Heart Learning Styles

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Uh actually good question. Was that no, no, no, it's it's a really good question. And it again, when I was thinking about uh meeting with you today, uh one of the things I did discover, and it was again this lovely teacher, Mr. Cooper. So so a shout out for you, Mr. Cooper.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I love Mr. Cooper.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Mr. Cooper taught at John Shelton in in the 70s. If you're out there, Mr. Cooper, you're a you're an excellent teacher, but I hope you're retired and I want a big fat of pension. Um one of the things Mr. Cooper taught all of us as as as pupils, he said that people tend to be one of three learners, and he described them as hand, head, or heart learners. And he said, Um, some of you are uh head learners and you like to sit and you know copy from the board and you know study from books and things like your you know, you like the theory in your head. He said, and and some of you are heart learners, you like to feel the experience, and some of you are hand learners, you need to touch it, it needs to be tangible for you. And I thought it was a a really interesting thing to do, and just shows you how I personally think you know how advanced he was as a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

I mean, this is he was ahead of his time, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah, well ahead of his time. And actually, when I look back at a school photograph, somebody, uh a friend from school sent me a class photograph recently of us all in there, and uh obviously I thought he was a big sort of grown-up old man. He probably was only in his early 20s now. I look at the picture, he probably wasn't long graduated when it when he taught me. Um, but he that was something he he asked us to kind of consider and we looked at different ways of learning. So he would deliver a class, so I can distinctly remember a class he delivered on canal boats because in the Midlands where I grew up, there's lots of lots of um canals. So we we had a uh a lesson on the history of like canal boats, and so part of the lesson was on the board, but part of the lesson we he went we went into the playground and he chalked the outline of a of a full-size outline of a canal boat, and some of us huddled together and pretended to be coal, and some of us huddled together and pretended so we got the opportunity to learn it theoretically in the head, and then to go out and and feel what's it like to be a yeah, yeah. And part of the the kind of diagnosis piece was him helping me to see that I was a heart and and hand learner, so kind of feeling things and and participating. The learning would be much more impactful for me than sitting just staring at a blackboard, yeah. Um, still, still, you know, effective form of teaching, but more effective for me was that the heart and the hand. And that led me into becoming um, I think was part of the trajectory that why I chose to become a therapist. I'm a I'm a therapist by by training, even though I'm I don't practice widely um because of service management. Um it led me into a profession which is about your heart and is about it, you know, engaging with people interpersonally and and and kind of experiencing things in a tangible sense rather than you know doing something that's that's academically focused in a kind of sitting down and reading or or studying in that sense. So I do think my dyslexia and that learning style combined probably led me into a profession that I felt more comfortable in and and more successful in.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

And Mr. Cooper as well, probably.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

And Mr. Cooper as well, yeah. Lots of shouts out to him.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Excellent, yeah. So um mine's Mr. Radcliffe, history teacher.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

See, you always remember a good teacher, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, you do. You do.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, absolutely. Um, but it's interesting because uh yeah, yeah. Uh that's for a different podcast.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Shout out to bad ones too.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

That's for a different podcast.

Speech To Text Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Um, but it's interesting because then when you you know, when I kind of left school and went on and studied, I could I can remember my first experience of of talk type software because one of the things I was gonna talk about today was if if you're interested, is you know, I think AI is a real friend to people with dyslexia, um, and that kind of autotype. I think it's a it's a real friend to them. But I can remember being at college and they said, Oh, there's this new thing coming out where this kind of talk type software, you're gonna talk into it and it's gonna type for you. I was like, this is brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

I'm gonna I'm an Olymp, I'm an Olympic talker, I can do this, I can talk out all my psychotherapy assignments and all my my um assignments for my course. This is this is brilliant. And so, but they said, but you've got to train it to know your voice. I said, all right. So they said you're gonna have to sit quietly in a part of the library, and you're gonna have to read this text. Um, and when you finish, save the text, and then it will be configured to your voice, and next time you use it, it will be able to type, but it has to be configured to your voice. I was like, okay, so it's quite a lot of text you've got to read. Set yourself a good hour and a half to one side. So I did. I sat in the corner of the library and I read this fascinating story about a woman who'd gone to the Antarctic, right? It was it was it was absolutely fascinating. And I got about 45 minutes to an hour in, and it the the system just crashed. It didn't, it didn't save my voice at all. And I was like, oh my god, I'm not I'm not going through all this again. Yeah, but that led me to to pursue to pursue the book. So I spent ages trying to I didn't want to do this software, it put me off. I found it very disheartening, and I think it's a good piece of learning for me as somebody whose you know job it is to support students with with um dis disabilities is to think about you know whether we're creating tools that are accessible but also are a positive experience to use. So, yes, this is an accessible thing, but actually it's it's torturous to use it. So then how accessible is it? So I gave up with the talk type software, but I spent ages trying to find out who wrote the book. I wrote to the manufacturers of this talk type software and said, Your software's rebbish, it crashes. I've you know, I've tried it, and I think I tried it a few times and it kept crashing before I'd finished configuring it to my voice. And then I but I wrote to them and said, Can you tell me who wrote the book? Because I want the book, the book was brilliant, I was hooked by the story, and I want to know what happened to her in the end. And they said, Well, nothing. And I said, What do you mean? They said, Well, there is no book. I said, There is I read it for you for your software, and they said, Oh no, the story has just been created because it uses so many words that are most common in the human language, and I was like, You what? So there was no end to the story, it was just a story. Bloomin' created to configure this machine, so it it knew lots and lots of common words. I was absolutely furious with that. I heard absolutely an ending now. No, no, I don't. I just it's just furious. I found it, yeah. But but again, it was that experience, and the reason I share that is it, you know, it's funny now, it wasn't at the time, I was furious and deeply frustrated by it all. Uh, but it's back to that kind of um that heart learning, you know. I was I was captivated by that experience of that person who's going to the Antarctic. Um, and I was really invested in the story, and I think because my dyslexia and my style of learning is is heart and hand, I'm I'm drawn to that kind of interpersonal way of working with people, and I think that's ultimately what led to that career and the frustration of not being able to finish that book because you know I was in invested in that kind of interpersonal experience of somebody who's gone to the Antarctic, although she never did. It was just literally a story created by a computer, he told me to use most common words in the in the English language.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

AI, it does yes every which way, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Okay, so unfortunately, time's moving on because I could talk for hours on this, but um I think we've covered most of the questions actually.

Pet Peeves Rules Cars And Coordination

SPEAKER_00 30:11

You've you've you kind of led us through them. Um but I'd like to know have you got a pet peeve?

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Have I got a pet peeve? That's a good question. Um yeah, the English language is my pet peeve. Um I before E except after C, except in a load of flipping words.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Except the word is not true. And the words I want to use.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

I know. So so my pet peeve is a lot of rules that traditionally, and I say traditionally, it's a long time since I've been at school, but traditionally we teach school children, but but aren't true. Um my other pet peeve about my dyslexia, and and I don't know about others, so I can talk about my own experiences, is that what comes with that is a is a mild sort of form of dyspraxia in the sense that I can't drive um a manual car, I can only drive an automatic. So I learned for years, I had driving lessons for years in a manual car, never got to the stage where I was good enough to drive. And then I met an American um chap at a friend's party once, and um he said, Oh, I I just I've have uh dyslexia and dyspraxia, so I can't drive, so I just drive an automatic, and that was in the early 90s, and so it was a pet peeve for me that the certain things I because of my dyslexia I can't do, so I can't drive a uh, like I say, a manual car, which is very expensive when you're hiring cars abroad because automatics are often more expensive. Um can't can't play the piano, would love to be able to have that coordination to I've owned a piano for many years, can't play. So my pet peeve, there's certain things I just can't do, and I know that that's related to that kind of sort of dyslexia, dyspraxia space. Yeah, and and and languages, I'd love to learn Spanish better, but I I still struggle with that, and I think that that's a peeve for me, but along with these silly rules of the English language that actually aren't rules, frustrations, yeah, yeah.

Netflix Habit Bees And Final Advice

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Okay, so Sally, I know this is a one question which I know everyone who has meetings with you or has or knows you probably would want me to ask. What are you watching on Netflix at the moment? That's an joke for those who work at the university because Sally always closes meetings with what you're watching on that, what's your advice about Netflix?

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yes, other streaming services are available. We're not sponsored by Netflix. But if Netflix wants to sponsor you, Damon, in this excellent work, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

I'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Oh, we'll we'll we'll take that. What am I watching on Netflix at the minute? That came about because of um during COVID, you know. So uh Yeah, what I was trying to do during COVID when we were again that kind of interpersonal piece, keeping in touch with with colleagues was to you know what's happening in your life, it was difficult because you didn't have that sort of you know, water cooler conversations with colleagues because we weren't together. So we used to end our meetings with that, and we still do what I'm watching at Netflix at the minute. Um, so I was actually on on I think it's BBC, I'm not sure. Um watching a uh a drama about the Mitford sisters who were a group of young women, yeah, who had very uh diverse lives and quite controversial lives at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

By straight views on life.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yes, they did. And some some of those views were not particularly friendly, let's let's put it that way. But um but but a fascinating kind of you know capture of time. And actually, some elements I was watching it the other night, I was thinking, oh, you know, you could replace some of what's being said in in this drama, and it could be where we're living in the world today, which was a little bit scary, thinking that we're in lots of ways we've we've still not moved on in a way of kind of embracing the kind of rich, diverse tapestry that human beings are still quite a lot of unpleasant views. So that's what I'm watching at the Netflix at the minute, a bit of a downer. And and of course, I have just finished watching the National Geographic's recent uh documentary about the secret world of bees, which is excellent.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

So, do you actually make honey?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Uh I don't make honey, the bees make honey, but yes, we should next time I see you, yes, we shall uh I'll get you some honey. Yes, collect the collect honey and bee stings.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Um okay, final question. We've got one minute left. So um pressures on. Um do you have any advice or insight you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_01 34:47

We're given loads already, but uh I don't know about advice. I would I would say uh let go of shame if if that's if that's part of your challenge. There's nothing to be there's nothing to be ashamed of. Excellent. Um but yeah, just just let go of shame and engage with with trusted people, you know. If you're at this university or you can get hold of me, I I can be one of those trusted people. Engage with with trusted people who will support you um in the same way that I received that support. It was deeply impactful, and I'd be happy to be a part of the community that that does that for others.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Perfect. Thank you very much, Sally. That's been amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

It's been great to talk to you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Bye bye.