Welcome And Elaine’s Role

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello, um, this is another one of our fireside conversations that I'm having with people in academia who identify in some ways being neurodivergent. My aim is to hear their personal experiences and to hear what the journey has been. This being the case, the terminology or the wording will be theirs and based on their experience and will be describing their personal journey. They may not use the terminology or expressions used by those who are listening, but um that's not what's important. As I want to hear the authentic voices in the way that they feel most comfortable. I want us all to learn from their life experiences in their own voices. So, hi, Elaine. Um, good morning. Hello. It's very early in the morning now.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

It is, yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

So can you tell us a bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Um yes, uh, my name's Elaine. I work, I've worked at the university for the past almost seven years in various roles. I currently work in the disability um admin team. And yeah, uh, so I support students um asking questions, anything to do with disability and a wide variety of other topics.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Excellent. Um, so have you always worked in student support? Is that always been your No?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Uh I've been in student support in the last three years. Before that, I started um in a data research group as a personal assistant to a researcher who had a disability and used a wheelchair.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

So yeah, she was uh Becca Wilson. She works at Liverpool University now. She's an amazing researcher, and uh yeah, we had lots of fun. That was a fun job, and then um um my role China kind of segwayed into a communic uh communications officer for the data research group, uh, which was really, really fun. So yeah. So communications as in pulling out the research and explaining what you were doing and things, yeah, and kind of uh uh the the the actual um project was something called Data Shield, which was um which was something that Professor Paul Burton um kind of created with other people, and uh yeah, so it was something that is used, it's an open source piece of research um and used across the world.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

So it lives on.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

It does, yeah. It's going from strength to strength. Yeah, look it up, it's really, really good.

Career Path From Research To Support

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I'll do that, I'll do that. Um so why why the moving to um student support?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

It must be quite a uh well, that that was purely because the research group moved to Liverpool and unfortunately um I couldn't move with them. Uh so yeah, so then I was just looking for another job at the university and thought, oh, okay, uh the disability team that I know a little bit. Let's uh let's see what that's like.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Excellent, excellent. So, um, how would you describe yourself in terms of your neurodiversity?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Um, well, I was only diagnosed with ADHD last year. Uh so up until fairly recently, I wouldn't have described myself as being neurodiverse. Um, and it's something that probably within the university, within our team, I'm quite open, quite happy to say to students. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, to say that, you know, I've got a DHD. Um, and but yeah, um friends and family, some some of my friends know, some of my family know, but it's just something that I choose to tell the people that I want to tell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Because it it's your knowledge, isn't it? It's for you to choose.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

It is, yeah. And it kind of doesn't alter in any way my relationship with people. Um, and I think some of my older family probably wouldn't understand. And it it's not an important thing for for me to have a label to them. Uh, I don't see myself as having a label, so yeah, I'm I'm just me.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

It um so it doesn't define you, it's just another no, not not at all.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

It's kind of just another facet to the to turn, you know, like the crystal.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Another facet to the complexity that is your humanity. Yeah, excellent. Um, so you you got a diagnosis about a year ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

How did you find the process?

University Years, Deadlines, And Mind Maps

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Uh the process was quite, I mean, as students will find that if you go via a GP referral, you've you've got to wait. Uh so it probably took me about two years um to get my diagnosis. Um, and it was relatively simple um to get. I mean, at that point I knew that I had ADHD and I'd known for quite some time because I did um I did a PGCE to teach English about 12 years ago, and I was looking into stuff at that time and thinking, hang on a minute, executive functioning. Uh, what's this Malarke? Uh oh yeah, I'm really not good at these kind of things, as I hand in another essay late. Uh and so kind of a penny dropped, and then I I started to investigate, looked up uh people like uh is it Barclay, Roger Barclay? I don't know. Read some books by a guy called Halliwell, and then I was like, yeah, okay, this this is this is me. This is uh overthinking, leaves everything to the last minute, very creative. Um if I've got a boring task to do, I will do everything on the planet to avoid doing the task that I do not want to do. So it all it was like all the pennies started to drop and go, oh okay. When I was at university, I never handed a piece of work in on time when I was an undergraduate. Right. Oh, in order to do something, I had to get the adrenaline rush that I needed to meet, well, to kind of meet that deadline, hand a piece of work in. So I would always like pull an overnighter, always.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

That was the only way that I could that I last minute.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Absolutely. But then would be really excited and fired up. All my neurons would be popping. I would have on my bed, I used to do it in bed, would you believe? I'd have the bed covered in all these papers I'd do. Mind maps were my absolute lifesaver. When I when I discovered the joy of a mind map, it kind of blew my mind because everything I need to see the big picture. So having a mind map with everything on there, it was like, okay, because I'm really awful at creating structure. So an essay obviously has to be well structured. Yeah, and it would be like, Well, I've got 27,000 ideas here. Which ones do I choose? How do I put them together? And drawing a mind map and going, okay, well, that actually links with that. I'll just move that. Seeing it all was just yeah, visual representation. Yeah, yeah. So I love a good mind map. If I'm going on holiday and if I have to prepare stuff, I used to go camping with two small children, my husband, my dog, and all of the camping equipment. Yeah, I would have to have two sides of A4, I would draw my mind map, everything will be on there. Then I was good to go. I didn't I didn't particularly have to refer back to the mind map. I kind of could go, okay, I I actually writing it down was uh seemed to get things going.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

So so that that would be a key hack, would it, um, for people who kind of just approaching this is get things laid out, draw it out.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

For me, I can talk, as you said in the introduction, I can talk for me. This is what works for me. Yeah, it might not work for everybody, but yeah.

Tools That Help: Trello And Visual Systems

SPEAKER_01 8:17

But that's it, that's that's the learning process, isn't it? Hearing from other people, finding out what works for them, and thinking, oh no, actually, that makes sense in my mind. That's um something I could try.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

And then and then another thing that that was quite was quite good, uh, was finding a software tool like Trello, um which I used in my communications role because I'd have everything I can see it on one kind of almost on one page. It's like if you've never used Trello, it's like little sticky notes, but you've got them in columns kind of thing. Um yeah, okay, really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

That's another one for me to look up. Trello. Yeah, it's a free piece of software.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Yeah. There are lots, there are lots of alternatives.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, there are, there are, and potentially too many. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, showing you the other one. I never quite get a grasp on them because I'm always moving on, so I always end up on pen and paper because that's the kind of fallback for me. Um, so so you got diagnosed about a year ago. Yeah. How did you feel about that? How did it change anything?

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Well, that's interesting. Because I'd known um for about, I don't know, 12 years that I had ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Um when I when somebody said and I I got a letter through, yes, you've got ADHD, then it it was a bit of a moment where I I had a bit of a wobble because to be officially stamped, yes, you have this condition, you are officially different.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah.

Diagnosis Feelings And Grieving The Past

SPEAKER_02 9:59

I I kind of I went through a process we'd probably call it like grieving. Um and I I had some counselling, which was helpful. Um and yeah, I I suppose I grieved for my younger self. I grieved for the for the A-level student who was interested in so many things. I grieved for the undergrad student who actually thought she was lazy, but I wasn't. I was fired up and excited. If somebody said to me, my I remember getting an essay and it was on Keats, and I love Keats. And it was like, oh yes, this is really great. This really interests me. And then I I would avoid doing it. I would do the dishes, I would, you know, anything to avoid doing this thing that I had to do, because for some reason, so you know, you have to do it. Then my my slippery brain would go, but actually, do you not would you not prefer to read Rebecca by Daphne de Moria instead? And that's what I did. I read Rebecca, and I yeah, you know, and it's all of those things where with knowledge it comes power. So I didn't have the self-knowledge to, you know, or any strategy. I just thought, I don't know what's going on here, but this is how I rock, and I just have to live with it. So I kind of, yeah, it was it was interesting. So I think now I don't know what it's like if you're a student and you're diagnosed with ADHD, that might be really empowering to say, okay, well, this is what it is. I can get support, there are lots of things. But when I was a student, ADHD was just a thing that American hyperactive schoolboys had. If I'd even heard of it at that time.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Boys in school who couldn't sit still in ADHD and they were naughty.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, that was a perception.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

And then the tricky thing is for girls is that you learn coping strategies, you learn not to stick your head out and you know, and and say like shocking things, um, which you know, the the impulsivity to kind of join in a conversation or in class and go, oh, what about this?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Uh yeah, you you learn to to hide all sorry, exposing my my ignorance a little bit, but um I understand that um for autism and ADHD, I don't know if it's because girls, young girls are more adapt at masking or are pushed more to masking than boys. It seems to be lower diagnosis with younger girls and than boys.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

I I think they are I I mean I I don't know is the answer, but um I think that from what I've read that girls learn to be good and and to you know to comply and and uh yeah, so that good girl model doesn't fit with somebody like kind of jumping up and going, yeah, uh look at me, where boys kind of it's you know, it was a perception that boys, you know, that's boys do that, they that's part of them and their kind of testosterone kind of driven impulses. I don't know.

Gender, Masking, And Late Recognition

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Maybe maybe seen as historically more acceptable, but anyway, okay, so um that's that's really amazing. Thank you um for sharing that about the the grieving for your your younger self. That's um that really makes sense. Um yeah, and the the diagnosis, so kind of it was it sort of liberating?

SPEAKER_02 13:38

In a way, yeah, in a way it was like yeah, and and vindicating that yeah, I haven't just made this up. I'm not just trying to push myself into this mould to to go, oh okay, this is why I I do things at the last minute.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, when I got my dyslexia diagnosis, it was again it was relatively recently, so I was uh a lot of life had been lived. And I think my my key thing was a relief, and in my back of my mind was oh I'm not thick. Yeah, yeah because you always you you always as you as you did, I always knew it was there. I knew I was dyslexic, but without that piece of paper to say that I am, you're always thinking, well, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm just not not able to do it. Maybe it's just because I'm not that bright. And um find it quite liberating on that. Um okay, so um moving on to questions. Um, so have you got could you show us an anecdote, either positive or negative, about your life with ADHD?

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Um let's think of uh well I'll start with a negative one, um, and it kind of links in with a a uh a peeve of mine, which is um if my husband says to me, can we declutter the garage or can we declutter the loft? Um my brain is like it's like a well, I change literally into Edvard Munch the scream, um because I can't that's too much stuff, that's overwhelming. It's like you know, you see this big thing, and you can I think, oh, I can't possibly, where do you even start? So I literally would run for the hills. Uh so that's a negative. Um, a positive on that would be well, actually, I can I could declutter a draw, I could start small, and I suppose this can be kind of uh this can be applied to anything. If for me with ADHD, it's like overwhelm is a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Um whereas start small and do one small thing, that's doable. Um I don't know if that's a a positive anecdote, an anecdote.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

It is because um it's it's kind of breaking things down step by step.

Reframing ADHD As Strength

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I think as well, I suppose I spoke to a student recently and I said um he'd just recently been diagnosed and he was struggling a bit. And I said, Well, you you do know that ADHD can be a superpower, um, that you might have the most creative brain, that you might be amazing at lateral thinking. Uh, you know, you are curious about so many things, and he was like, I've never had anybody say anything, or I've never heard anybody with ADHD say anything positive. Yeah, and that was really sad. Um, but it is, it can be um amazing because my brain will just start to, you know, if somebody asks a question, my brain will just kind of fire off all of these different possible scenarios and answers and solutions to problems. Um, yeah, which is is is really cool. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of um yeah, superpower things got pros and cons, hasn't it? I think um I for dyslexia, I liken it to rather than being Superman, being Batman. So you kind of got uh a belt full of um gadgets that you've developed over the years and you've learned how to do things. Um but yeah, the imagination thing is um so it's kind of a so the kind of the tagging the garage thing. It's kind of like creating a mind map, isn't it? Again, it's going back to breaking a task down into pieces and um having it laid out in front of you and saying, Well, if I sort out that bench first, then that will be done. Then I can move the stuff from that bench onto that bench, and then it's kind of working with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

But also the the real problem for me is that I see potential in all sorts of things. So that empty box which I've kept because it's super thick, that might be a useful thing in the future. Um, so I I find it hard to kind of to get rid of stuff, but that's yeah, that's just me because you know there's potential in everything.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

There is, there is, that's the screen we're gonna look at it. And um, so do you think um do you think um when you meet with the students, do you talk to them about your ADHD?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

In the past, we did um we did disability drop-ins, our team. That's now moved to student well-being advisors, so they do the drop-ins.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Um okay.

Work, Purpose, And Helping Students

SPEAKER_02 18:29

But yes, I did. I did I kind of did, but at the time when I was meeting students, I didn't have my diagnosis. Yeah. So um often I wouldn't feel uh, you know, I I would say that I haven't, you know, I would explain, you know, I'm I'm waiting for a diagnosis. I suspect I have it. Um but yeah, it was it it was good to share. Yes, to share that and go, actually, well, here I am. I've I've got a degree, I've got various different qualifications, and it is possible to get through um your undergraduates um and come out of the end of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah, that's something I've got written down here from to come back to and come back to now. You said kind of it's obviously not held you back. You've had a quite an impressive and kind of quite diverse career.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, yeah. I suppose because I mean, at the root of me, I want to help people. Uh, in whatever role that I've done, I've worked in sales for an engineering firm for a long time. Uh I've worked in uh a college, Percy Headley College, uh supporting students there, which was amazing. Some really clabb students. Yeah. Um, yeah, I was a stay-at-home mum for a long time, which was probably my hardest job that I've ever had, it has to be said. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Um, okay, so um Time's moving on. I've just realized yeah. What would you like to better understand?

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Um, I would like to form habits better, form good habits. I once came across a quote which I really loved, but at the time I thought it was rubbish. Um, in structure, there is freedom. Hang on. So I think I think I came across this quote quite some years ago when I was like thinking, oh no, I'm a go-with-the-floor kind of girl. I just like to improvise, I like to do things off the hoof, you know, off the cuff. Um but actually the structure part, if if you've got structure, when I worked for my old boss Becca in the research group, she was brilliant at creating the structure in which then I could kind of you know fly. And we we made a really great team. Um so yeah, creating structure and habits, I struggle with. I would like to understand that better. I have got the six-minute bullet journal, which I started, and I think I managed six days before I uh what's a six-minute journal?

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Do you write for six minutes?

SPEAKER_02 21:16

No, I think it's you write for six minutes. Um, sorry, three minutes in the morning, three minutes in the night. It's kind of like a reflection tool.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

It's also like a gratitude thing where you write for three. So I think after six days, I I kind of ran out of things to be grateful for because I thought you had to have three different things every day. Um, so yeah. Okay, so yeah, that's I was only grateful for 18 things doing the maths in my head.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, you yeah, there's some things you've got to be grateful for every day, I guess, aren't there? But I like that the structure, there's freedom.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

It does work. I mean, because yeah, like I say, when I initially came across that, I was like, oh, structure. I hate structure.

Sensory Boundaries And Everyday Peeves

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I'd rather just know what you're doing, then you've got freedom to just go on with it.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

But actually, yeah, it it makes complete sense.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah, but it I see what you mean. It's on on paper initially, it's quite scary, isn't it? Yeah, saying you're not with it. If you can't be structured, you can't be free. But um, yeah. Okay, um what would you like to tell somebody else? Uh, friends, family, students, academics, baristas.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Um I well, it's it's kind of I I keep going back to that student that I that I spoke to who'd never heard anybody say that that ADHD was anything other than a negative. Um and I would say that it, you know, we're all individuals, label or no label, um, and you kind of learn to to kind of love parts of yourself, work on parts of yourself, and just accept, you know, at the end of the day, you just have to accept who you are, um, and kind of learn to love yourself.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Hard, it is hard, it is, but yeah, but it's just finding the strengths, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:07

It's finding where your strengths are and exploring and not not it's it's constant, there's a we've got in a very comparing society where you see other what somebody else do something, you think I should be able to do that too. But actually, that's not your that's not you, that's not your way. Find your way and be free to express yourself in your own way, I think.

Practical Prioritisation And Final Advice

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Well put, very well put.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Overinterpreting that um excellent, thank you. Um and what what what about a pet peeve? Is that what people say or do that makes you think, oh, please don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Oh, do you know? I'm quite a sensitive soul. Um, and also um, so anybody in Newcastle who has to use the metro.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

So when the metro's really busy, and if somebody just touches me on the metro, not like touches me, but like kind of butts up, turns around, and their backpack kind of is touching my arm. I'm like, get out of my personal space. It's like yeah, I don't know if that has anything to do with ADHD or if that's just me, but yeah, very much this is my personal space.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yes, leave me alone.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Bit like dirty dancing. Here you go.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Like this. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Um, people need to be more aware of backpacks. I think for similar thing for these umbrellas.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Yeah, yeah, anything of yeah, I just yeah, oh, pet peeve, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Excellent. Right, um, that's been amazing, thank you. Um, before we close, um do you have any insights or advice that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 24:50

And I know you've got you've already said loads, and um there must be so many that you've kind of had from your interactions over the years, but well, I suppose if particularly with ADHD, if you find something that works for you, try lots of different things. Don't think because say if um you know mind maps might not work for you. Um I there was one that I got that um that was put down on three different cards, small little cards. I've usually got one which I could have shown you, but red a card, a yellow card, and an orange card. And the red cards are the things that are super urgent that you need to do. The orange things are you might not need to do them in the next day or so, but they're really you know, you've got to get them done. The yellow card is your kind of wish list, right? So that worked. I used that for quite a while, and that was really useful. And I would have them in my pocket, and I I used to put a little bulldog clip on the top of them, and then it was like I can see it, and it's it's kind of that repetition of seeing this thing repeatedly, because obviously, thoughts with ADHD can they just come into your head, they disappear, and then three days later they come back and they go. Um, so that was a concrete way of having the little reminders in my pocket of priorities. This is what I really need to do today in red on this red card.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Having the physicality of it as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, but that might not work for everyone now. There are loads of apps that you can get on your phone.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Um, but it's not it's not the same, I find um the the phone is is amazing at this. Saved saved me so many times, but having that physicality um notes on my desk spread out, so I can anyway. So I yes, so explore things. That's that's really exploring. Explore things offerings.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah, and then and then if you if you're willing to talk to people, I mean if you're at the university and you're a student, come and see the disability team. Um they're a great bunch, and we're we're here to support all the students.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

That's a great great note to finish, Sean. That's great. Thank you very much, Elaine.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

All right, thanks a lot, Damien.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Oops