SPEAKER_01 0:03

Okay, um so this is the first session I'm running in a series of conversations. I want to have um fireside chats, if you will, um with people who identify in some way as being neurodiverse. I want to hear their own personal experiences and I've asked them to share these with us so that um if any terminology words they use will be their words from their experience and it's their life, so uh that's the way they want to describe what they're feeling. They may not uh be those of you listening, but that's not important. I want it to be uh their voices and expressing how they feel, and I want to learn from their experiences, and hopefully anybody listening will too. So, hello, um Jenna Mae. It's good to have you with us, and thank you for doing this. Um, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Um, so first question can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

From Biomed To Medical History

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Yep, so uh my name is Jenna Mae. I've just graduated from Newcastle this summer with an MSI in biomedical science. I'm currently staying with my parents, figuring out my next step, which probably involves moving abroad, currently thinking France. And we're currently looking into job options, particularly doing a PhD in history, actually, medical history.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Okay, that sounds really interesting. Um, so a bit of a bit of a divergence from um your original career path, I think, um there. Um yeah. So I'm interested in now. So study abroad, where would you like to go? Where are you thinking about going?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Um, particularly thinking France because I'm basically student in French. Um, and it just seems like a place that has uh exactly the kind of lifestyle I'm looking for. Very good work life balance, that kind of thing. Um, but yeah, I would also consider Norway for similar reasons, very good work life balance. I speak a little bit of Norwegian, so I would also consider Spain. I also speak a bit of Spanish, uh, quite a bit, actually. So again, I would consider Spain, but it might be a bit too hot for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Okay, yeah, I understand that. Um yeah, I couldn't do too much heat. So um, sorry, getting back to um what we're talking about. So, how would you describe yourself in terms of your your new diversity?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Um, I would I prefer to say that I have asperges, but I don't mind saying that I'm autistic or I have autism. Bear in mind I started my whole diagnosis journey back around 2008, 2009, where asperges was still much more common. So that's the word that I learned to use to describe myself very early. But also, I know this is a controversial opinion, but um I personally think that there is a difference between what could be called high-functioning and low-functioning autism. I'm not sure they're the same things, I don't feel like I have just a milder version of that. That's not a problem. I just think when you have two things that are so different, it's worth having different terms. And the only other thing I could think of without being mean to other people and calling them low functioning is just to say that I have asperges. So I just think I don't understand too well.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

So um high functioning, low functioning. So where would you put yourself in that?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Uh the high functioning, I'm afraid. I live completely independently for four years. Yeah, you know, got a master's degree. I don't think you could get much more functional than that, really.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Absolutely, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

If anything, I actually feel like my neurodivergence actually makes my life easier than it makes it harder in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

So okay, I'm sure that's something we'll come to later on to thinking about that where that might be the case. Okay, so um so so do you think asperges is comes from historic diagnosis you've got, or do you think that's just describes you better in terms of how you feel?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I think it describes me a bit better. I will also notice that if my parents are talking to someone else and they say that their daughter has asperges, people have quite a good picture already of what I'm going to be like. If they say autism, people don't really know, they can't really picture me that well until my parents go into more detail about me. So it's one of those where if people say asperges, they get quite a good picture of who I am.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

So you think asperges is not even understood.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah, I think so. I think so. There's only stereotypes about it like being not very empathetic, empathetic, which is not me at all, but that is just a misconception. I just yeah, I found that that just seems to align a little bit more with how I would describe myself. And like I said, that term was much more in use when I was a kid than it is now.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah. Okay. Um I thought of another question then, but it's it's gone now. Um, so is there anything else you'd like to add in terms of um how you describe your your neurodiversity?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Um I do have something kind of interesting to mention actually, and that's that um, so I was in Mensa for a number of years. Uh, I'm only not in it because I'm too poor to pay the membership feedbacking student. Um but what's quite interesting is that there is this concept in MENSA that having high IQ is its own form of neurodivergence. And having spent a lot of time with those people, I'd actually agree with that personally. So um it's an interesting one. I've never really gone into it too much, but I do think that's um it has the potential to be its own form of neurodivergence. I kind of think it is, uh, so I could potentially also have that. But there's a lot, a lot of crossover between the high IQ and autism as purges, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

One stops and it starts, but I suppose it comes into the whole concept that it's all about individuality and you're all got different aspects of everything, haven't we? Really, I think, to an extent. Okay, so um you you you'd mentioned your parents discussed um how do you diagnose, so you've got a diagnosis. Okay. Yeah. Um how did that affect you when you first receive your diagnosis?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Well, it was a bit complicated, actually, the story of getting the diagnosis because it was first brought up by my school when I was four years old, as soon as I started primary school. But my parents went, nope, we're not looking into that. Because my little sister had a lot of physical health problems. She was constantly in the outer hospital. So then she's like, No, we're just not dealing with any, she's fine, we're not dealing with any extra medical stuff for the older one. Okay. But then about two years later, um, my nana went to my mum and she said, Someone at the pub, their grandchild was just diagnosed with aspergism. I really think you should look into it. It's a lot like Jenna Mae. And my parents read this article, and they've always said it was like that article was written about me. So they went, okay, it would be really good if we could look to get some kind of support for her, but also support for us to raise a neurodivergent child. We want to know how to do what's right for her. So they went to the school and the school registration now because we changed her teacher and I had a different class teacher. Um, it was a very interesting situation. I won't get into it too much, but ultimately it was decided that I should not get a diagnosis, partially because my school actually slightly lied about how I was in order to prevent me from getting a diagnosis. It was a very interesting situation. My parents aren't even 100%.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So your birth were very on board and you extended family, it sounds like, with your grandmother with the with the cost of community diversity.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

The only thing was the school had brought up at some point that it might affect my career prospects if I got a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

They had this idea uh at my school that it would affect my career prospects. So my parents went, okay, we'll just let her decide when she's older. So then when I got to high school, I started making friends with other people with autism and asperges, and I felt very much at home. I felt very much, you know, I could really relate to these people. But I felt weird about the fact that I didn't have a diagnosis. I sort of felt a bit like an imposter among them. So I really pushed to get a diagnosis and I was able to get one within about a year because my high school was very supportive of that. Um, but yeah, so that was something that I very actively pushed for as I think about a 13, 14-year-old. But my response to that was very positive because I think it just I'd always known it, but it finally just gave me permission to accept that yes, I am different from other people, and that's fine. I don't have to try to make myself fit into everybody else's mould. So maybe it was just a positive and then just sort of faded into the background almost, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

So it's quite a liberated experience too.

unknown 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Would would you describe it as a label or is that too?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Um sort of in the respects as if it can be kind of helpful to try to find other people who are like me, or to give other people a quick idea of who I am, but I don't use it as like an identity label. If I had to describe myself in five words, Asperger's would not be one of those words, so I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Oh really? So that's no, I don't think so. Okay, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

I go for more like personality traits and things like that, which some of them do overlap, but uh yeah, uh, I wouldn't necessarily use it as one of the key traits, I don't think.

Owning The Label Without Living It

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Okay. Okay, so um so you mentioned then that kind of um you had a group of friends who were diagnosed. Did you were you drawn to to being with them, or was that just people you knew that you related to?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, I was very drawn to being with them. So these two particular friends I had uh were on the same school bus as me. We had quite a long bus journey, about 15 minutes either way. So we got to know each other very well because of that. But we just gravitated together and we got along really, really well. And I remember having full bush ends where we'd have conversations about things like sounds or textures that we didn't like, that kind of thing. Conversations that you couldn't really have with anyone else. Um and we just found ourselves relating to each other really deeply. So yeah, I think it was just one of those where of all the people on the bus that could have spoken to, I just really gravitated towards these two.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Okay. In terms of the process of diagnosis, the kind of uh the the clinical setting and the report you received following that, did that help you in terms of receiving words you could use to describe yourself? Or did it give you a greater understanding of yourself?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Um, not necessarily because I've been having these conversations with my parents since I was about six. So I kind of already had this vocabulary, it was just more yes, I can confidently say that I have autism mass burgers because I officially have that label now.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

It's not just confidence more.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Okay, that's that's really it's really interesting. And similar to experience when I was diagnosed, so it's good to hear someone else say that. Which is kind of the point of these um these chats. Um okay, so okay, back to questions. Can you describe how, in effect, how it affects you in your day-to-day life and the way in the way that people wouldn't necessarily expect?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, so I think the most unexpected thing is the fatigue levels for me. Uh, I get tired a lot faster. Fatigue levels.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Oh, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

So I get tired a lot faster than other people. Um, being in social settings can really drain my battery. So having a conversation for a couple of hours, I would actually need a bit of a rest after that. But also it's working hours. So I did not do anywhere near the amount of hours of work that run the module study guides, that kind of thing. But I was still coming out with, you know, very high 60% or even in 70% so many of my modules because I'm more of a sprinter. I'm more just sit down, get everything done, and then go away and do something else because my brain's very intense. I have to do it that way because I get very tired towards the latter portion of the day. So I just have to do everything quickly and efficiently in the morning and then just go and recover in the afternoon. Yeah, I just I've just always had this thing with fatigue. I mean, I ended up with undiagnosed, but I think I had it chronic fatigue uh in sixth form just because of the intensity of doing A levels, having to travel a long way to school, not having any respite because it was always a busy environment at school. So I do get fatigue in a way that I don't think a lot of neurotypicals do. And in terms of working in the lab, actually, during stage three and four, that did actually really affect me. Um, if I had to do, say, a Western block where I had to be in for a fairly long day, I'd be exhausted by the end of it. So I had to try to deal with that in ways like doing multiple repeats on one day. Like you would never see me running one gel on a western block. I do four, just get them all over and done within one day. So I have to go through that process less and be less tired overall. So I would do a lot of things like breaking down the experiments.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Clarify for those of the ones from a science background, those are kind of lab techniques which kind of can take a long time to do, and there's a lot of waiting, a lot of sitting around, and then suddenly you have to do something and kind of so I guess that fits in with the sprint rest kind of aspect.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

There's no rushing it because you know you have to leave your gels in the tank for an hour and a half to process, you have to leave them transferring for an hour. There's no rushing that. A lot of people go back to the office and they read some papers in the meantime, or they'll start another experiment in the meantime. If I have lots of experiments to get through that week, then I will try to plug them into the gap just to get everything over with. But otherwise, I'm just gonna have to go back to the office and read just to conserve my energy to be able to make it through to the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Okay, that's really that's really good. That's really interesting. Um, but I think I put might know the answers, but I don't want to make assumptions. So, in terms of the energy levels, you said kind of it kind of burn out quite early. Can you say why that might be the case? What what what why do you think that is?

Sensory Load And Social Environments

SPEAKER_00 12:27

I think my brain is just very intense. Uh, I think it just is always on very high power. Um, I certainly do need a lot of quiet time. I need a lot of time where my mind can just wander. I daydream a lot. So I don't think my mind likes being confined to one task for too long. That's how when I am confined to one task, I can do quite a bit in that time, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah. Okay. So it's um it's the way your brain just kind of is in hyperdrive a lot of the time. And then you say, Oh, I need a bit of a rest now. Okay, so I was wondering if it was because of stimulation, because being in the lab's quite a stimulating environment. And what do you find that draining?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yes, definitely. So I would I could I could last longer if I'm working in a quiet library than if I'm working in a busy office environment. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

There's a reason why I've never gone into a nightclub in my life. I will spend my evenings in the reading book in silence. Not once.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Um, how about a lively pub? Is that too much?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Wouldn't even go there, no.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

I somehow survive four years at Newcastle University without drinking a drop of alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, that's really interesting. Yeah, it's um so it's the you think the energy is used up by the velocity of your brain as opposed to the stimulation, but that is part of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, both, but definitely more the intensity of my brain because it is very, very loud in there.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Okay, and would you have it? This is kind of jumping to the next question, so I hope it's not the answer to that. Um, would you have any advice to any students who potentially would appreciate who would be going through that and going to the lab and having that kind of feeling of tiredness?

Flexible Work And Nonlinear Days

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Um, so I would say, first of all, do what I did and just try to batch things up. So if you know that you've got to run, say, three repeats of the same experiment, try to just see them all on one day and then just do them all on one day. It's more tiring on that particular day where you have to run that experiment, but then you maybe get more days off. I'd also say learn at what point you can pause an experiment. At what point can you stick something in the freezer? At what point can you just leave something incubating overnight rather than having to do it straight away? That way, if you feel like you're really exhausted, pause it and come back to it tomorrow. Just have that flexibility built in, or if you know you're really tired.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Okay. And in the neotypical world we we live in, it's very much nine to five that we arrive at in the morning and go home in the evening. Do you think it'd be more beneficial as a someone who's new diverse to have more flexibility in that, to be able to come in a little bit earlier, have a break, carry on, stay a bit later, but break up your day a bit more?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

For me, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

For me, you know, obviously I'm thinking about that jobs as a recent graduate, but I'm looking for a job where it's not based on the amount of hours that I work, but on the amount of work that I produce. Yeah. I want it to be the case that if I what this is why I like the idea of a history PhD, you know, as far as I understand it, I can go to the library at whatever time I want, read all of my historic texts in one morning, and then just go home and do something else rather than an office environment where I'm having to clock in, I'm having to be there for a certain amount of hours. For me, that flexibility is brilliant. But I also understand that for some other people with autism raspbergers who love routine, maybe an eye to five could be beneficial to them.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All individuals are all different, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Absolutely.

Communication Myths And Deep Talk

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Okay, so if you could tell your family or friends or others anything specifically about yourself, what would that be? What would you like to explain to them?

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Um, stuff in my family, that's not really anything because they're just so accommodating.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

They do sound very much on board with with who you are and um and what you what you want.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I'm never seen as weird in their eyes. They just completely take everything about me in their stride. That's it. We're all a bit quirky in my family in our own different ways. I'm the only one who's quirky in this way, but it's just, you know, oh yes, you have this particular quirk, that's just a normal part of life. It's yeah, we're very matter of fact about that sort of thing. But in terms of other people, I would like to tell people that it's not 100% good or 100% bad. You'll often hear either the superpower narrative where being neurodivergent is the best thing ever and there are no problems, or you hear the it's absolutely terrible, I'm disabled, it's awful. But humans, we have good and we have bad. You know, I do have the fatigue. I struggle to understand humor in certain contexts, like non-literal humour. Um, you know, I I can slightly not understand um social keys in some situations, but I'm also very true to myself because I don't care about peer pressure and I'm not that bothered about what other people think of me. I'm very good at asserting my boundaries. If someone wants me to work more hours than I'm comfortable with, I will just say no. Because I'm very comfortable doing that.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Do you think that's something that's come from your family background? You've been given that confidence to say, I am me, therefore.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

And do you think that's do you think the diagnosis had impact on that? Having that kind of Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

I was always very confident being quirky when I was younger. I never really had any issue with that. Um, other kids tried to bully me a bit in primary school for running around the playground age room and that kind of thing, but you can't really bully a kid who, when you say you're weird, they go, I know I am. I don't try to hide it, do I?

SPEAKER_01 17:35

That's so true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

You know, I was pretty much unbullyable because of that. Um, so yeah, I've always had that very, you know, I don't really care what you think of me kind of attitude. But yeah, the diagnosis I think was helpful in the respect of just giving it that last extra bit of weight. But at the same time, it is a bit weird that it's considered a medical condition. Where to a certain extent I'm not sure how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I suddenly realized I was using that word medical uncomfortable with it.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

But um Yeah, it's one of those weird things. It's like you go to the doctor for a diagnosis, but I'm perfectly healthy and I'm living a fully functional life. Why am I going to a doctor's sort of thing? It's it's quite an interesting one.

Final Advice: Find Your Niche

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's um yeah, it's kind of you find yourself saying things and thinking, why am I saying it like that? But then you can't really think of another way of saying it. And it kind of fits, so I guess.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

The reason I say Asperge is not Asperge's syndrome. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Okay, explain that a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Uh, I just don't really feel like I have a syndrome or a disorder. Anything I'd say also the spectrum of condition rather than disorder, that kind of thing, because I don't know, do I really have a disorder? And I don't feel that there's anything wrong with me. I'm just a little bit different. I almost just see it a bit like if someone's seven foot tall, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with being seven foot tall, but you're gonna have a hard time getting through the door because most buildings aren't built for people who are seven foot tall. I just see it as the world isn't necessarily set up for people like me, but there's nothing inherently bad or wrong with how I am.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

It's funny how how terminology affects you on a personal level. Someone um I was talking to someone earlier and they referred to someone being a dyslexic or have having dyslexia. I think having dyslexia was a terminology. And for the first time, I kind of thought, no, I I am dyslexic, but I don't have it. It's not yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

This is why I sometimes say I am autistic, but I have asperges because I've got really an adjective, but asperges, it's a bit of a mindfield.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I'm not terribly fussy about what you've got to drive, but um think about why you feel a certain way when people say it and process it, I suppose. Okay, sorry. Um do you have any I I've got a few of these, but have you got any pet peeves?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Right, so my personal biggest one is there are some people who seem to think that if someone is good at communicating, they can't be autistic or they can't have asperges. They seem to think we all have to be bad at communicating. Okay, I'm trying to.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

And yeah. So I'm trilingual. I do creative writing for fun. My hobbies are things like watching Shakespeare plays and reading 19th century literature. I I like public speaking. I like to think I'm very good at getting my point across in many cases. I can have very good, very meaningful conversations. I'm a good communicator by all accounts. But I'm still a very clear-cut case of autism asperges. There was no debate about it when I got diagnosed. And they knew all this about me. So I think there are a lot of people who have this misconception that because social difficulties are supposed to be a part of it, that if you're bad at communicating when you're not actually autistic, that kind of thing. Sorry, if you're good at communicating, you're not actually autistic. It's like, no, I can't necessarily get humor when you're not really being literal. I can't, I have to remind myself, oh, they're not being serious, that kind of thing. Don't try to be sarcastic with me unless you're really, really affecting your voice, that kind of thing. But other than that, I am very good at communication. I can't do small talk, but is that a bad thing? Because I actually tend to get a lot deeper with people a lot faster, and people tend to really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Instead of small talk, I actually like to find what people are passionate about. Because I love seeing people's eyes light up. So when I was in cellwalking society, you'd often spend two hours on a coach next to a stranger. So I would start just asking them about like what subject they study, and I just try to find that thing that really made them light up, and then I just go for it. That's not small talk, but we'd often have a much better conversation because I didn't go for small talk, because I wanted to get to know them better, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Okay. That's good. That's good. That's really nice to hear because I'm I'm I'm very bad at small talk and networking the whole kind of standing around talking with a glass in your hand. I just yes. Okay, sorry. Yeah. And so finally, um I guess this is the kind of have you anything else to say? So the question is do you have any advice or insights you'd like to share? Or you've got something nice to say, really.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Uh so my advice to anyone, but especially to neurodivergent people, is find your niche. And I say this because I'm particularly thinking about this in the context of work, because obviously I've just graduated, but this fits in all context of life. Neurotypic, I find, are more like those species that you find on any every continent, basically. They're very well adapted to a wide range of environments. Whereas I find that neurodivergent people are often more like those more local species where you're very adapted to one particular niche, but outside of that you might struggle. So what I would say is just know yourself, understand yourself, study yourself, and figure out what's really going to help you thrive. So for me, for example, it's having flexible hours, like I said, it's having a client working environment. It's um yeah, finding the kind of boss or supervisor who is understanding of the fact that I might work a little bit differently to other people. And that whittles down the amount of jobs that I could apply for, certainly. However, those jobs that are left, I'd be very well adapted to. I will be able to thrive in that, not just in terms of productivity and getting the job done, but also in terms of my mental health and my happiness. So I think that's the most important thing. Just because the nine to five is standard, just because some other kind of job is standard, does not mean that you have to fit into that. Just try to find what really works for you and then go for that.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Excellent. That was really good. Thank you. Yeah, I like all that. Um yes, I think finding finding a niche and finding that place where you can be content and relaxed and be your best yourself, then that's a great okay. Um, anything else you'd like to say?

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Uh no, I think that's it.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Okay. Well, thank you very much for taking your time and having a chat.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Well, thank you very much.